That we're in Depression_2.0 will be obvious to even the dimmest bulb by the end of 2011 is something I've been saying since last year. This has been a lost decade. Neither party is going to do a damn thing to help the poor/working/middle class - or at the earliest, after the 2012 election meaning we're on our own until 2014. I don't see the system lasting that long. Everyone I know is broke, in debt and underpaid. All of the wealth earned by the middle class from 1946 to 1970 is in the pockets of the wealthy (and then some) thanks to regressive taxation, regressive policies, outsourcing, stagnant wages, and the out-of-the-closet marriage of corporations government.
The middle class is totally tapped financially. The poor never had any money - and their ranks grow daily. And the rich just want more for themselves and they'll continue to get it until either a) one economic link/natural disaster/incident in the web breaks, taking everything else with it or b) the French Revolution goes global.
Every single pillar that holds up our world is rotten and ready to crumble. I defy anyone to name one that isn't.
I'm not an economist but I don't see how any economy can survive without producing something other than "Financial Instruments" i.e. creative accounting. We borrow and import but do not produce or sell anything. If I remember, there's physics law that says you can't get something from nothing. But that's another matter.
The United States economy works best when there is energy, specifically oil, at stable low prices. Since oil prices became unhinged in the late 90s, there has been no stable, long term growth.
As energy prices go up, they make everything cost more.
The ONLY way out is to create a balanced energy policy that allows us to transition from todays energy (oil) to tomorrows energy (geothermal, nuclear[thorium], natural gas).
It really doesn't matter what people believe. It only matters what is happening statistically. Statistically, it is time for America's Rich to skip the country with their loot.
EXACTLY! You made my day. Here, read this (and pay particular attention to #8 - we're on the same wavelength).
Suggestions:
1) We need to end the wars of Afghanistan and Iraq, as well as the bogus war on nouns (drugs and terror), and cut the defense budget.
2) Eliminate corporate personhood and term limits for corporate charters of 25 years.
3) Reinstate Glass-Stegall and the rest of the New Deal banking regulations. A full auditing of the federal reserve (a private corporation no more “federal” than Federal Express) is long overdue.
4) Separation of corporations and state: in the Bill of Rights we have a separation of church and state. We need an additional amendment to permanently, absolutely and irrevocably separate corporate and state powers.
5) Free airtime for politicians on broadcast networks in the 90 days leading up to Election Day. Politicians should be required to wear the names/corporate logos of their sponsors on their clothes while performing official business, same as NASCAR drivers.
6) The first $25,000 of income should be free from federal taxes. This should be the national minimum wage ($12 an hour) and its annual automatic raises tied to either the inflationary rate or to what raise Congress gives itself - whichever is larger. The minimum wage needs to be enough to actually live on. Support family values? Then support a wage large enough for a single earner to support a family with. Support smaller government? Then enough with Congress voting pay raises for themselves. The economy needs people to earn enough money so they can pay off old debts and make new ones.
7) Every foreclosed property that the banks can't prove they own could be sold to the homeless poor and working class for pennies on the dollar with 30 year mortgages and low minimum monthly payments of say, $400 to $500 a month. Since the US gov't already gave $9T in loans at 0% interest to the criminals who crashed the economy, helping their victims should not be a problem. It does not make sense to bail out the banks but not help their victims.
8) Restore taxes that protect workers from exploitation. If a pair of shoes made in America has $1 of labor costs and the same shoes made in Taiwan has 10 cents of labor costs, then a 90 cent tax should be added to each pair of shoes imported into the US. Similarly, if a US-based engineer costs $90K and an Indian engineer costs $10K, then an $80K tax should be paid by the company for each Indian hired over an American. A similar tax can be added to goods manufactured in countries without environmental protections. Such a system protects workers in both countries from an exploitative “race-to-the-bottom”.
9) Raise the social security tax to all personal income over $107,000 so that everyone pays the same percentage. Do that and the program will have enough surplus to be expanded and to raise benefits! Also, social security insurance payments should NOT be considered taxable income, especially in a nation without universal health care.
10) Speaking of which, universal health care: anyone that says it’ll cost more money is either lying, ignorant or stupid: every other country on Earth has it but NONE pay nearly what we do; QED. Despite spending more money than everyone else, the US is #37 in health care right behind France, Italy, San Marino, Andorra, Malta, Singapore, Spain, Oman, Austria, Japan, Norway, Portugal, Monaco, Greece, Iceland, Luxembourg, Netherlands, United Kingdom, Ireland, Switzerland, Belgium, Colombia, Sweden, Cyprus, Germany, Saudi Arabia, United Arab Emirates, Israel, Morocco, Canada, Finland, Australia, Chile, Denmark, Dominica and Costa Rica.
11) Renewable energy independence is a national security issue and should be treated with the same urgency as the space race of the 1960s (and at the moment, this needs to include revisiting nuclear power). A vigorous new effort towards energy independence can be combined with a new WPA that lowers unemployment while renewing our national infrastructure and a new Homestead Act that creates family-owned energy farms will renew rural investment and strengthen the national grid through decentralization of power generation and transmission. We can also rewire the nation’s communications network to a 22nd century standard while hardening the network’s vulnerabilities to attack. Can you imagine life without electricity or the internet? Neither can I – these systems need fortification.
12) Speaking of the internet, unfettered high speed internet is far too important to leave to private interests. Universal internet service should be a national public utility.
13) Universal higher education, student loan forgiveness and a total overhaul of the system: for less money than what we spent in Iraq, everyone's student loans could have been paid off in full. The best and the brightest in the country are hamstrung by this debt and by usury practices that would put make Tony Soprano blush – all backed by the muscle of the US gov’t. FreeDUMB doesn’t work in a democracy, yet we are becoming dumber with each generation. Critical thinking is what’s required for a functioning democracy, not “teaching to the test.”
14) Fresh water is running out worldwide. You can't drink oil nor can you raise plants and livestock with it. Water wars have occurred in the past and will occur again. The 19th century laws regarding water rights need to be updated. Water is a universal human right that must be beyond corporate or private control.
15) Ready or not, global warming is happening. We have to accept this reality and prepare for it as best we can.
The Japanese tried to solve their financial crisis by borrowing against debt and pumping money into the economy. They now have a national debt at 228% of GDP.
As long as we have big goverment throwing money at the problem and having only temporary recovery and no movement in the private sector it might not get any better
I'm not a man given to panic. I've watched the situation deteriorate over the course of decades and the rate of deterioration is accelerating. When it became obvious that Obama was not the change we hoped for (and we desperately need major systemic changes along the lines of FDR) it's time to hit the fire alarm.
I knew somebody was going to say "innovation" as that has historically been our golden goose, but take a closer look at innovation: companies started cutting R&D budgets decades ago. Take the pharmaceutical industry or computer industry as examples. And to paraphrase the point that eraptor made, the innovation of the ipad doesn't mean squat when it's manufactured in another country at nigh slave wages and conditions, and intellectual properties are pirated all too easily.
You also mentioned productivity. Sorry, but productivity has increased in the United States (we are the most productive in the world) but this has not meant higher wages. This decoupling between increased productivity and wages began in the early 1970s. This is the core of the problem.
You also mentioned competition. Again, a race to the bottom helps no one. An American electrical engineer with a BS and $30K in student loans cannot compete with an EE from Bangalore with an MS who lives comfortably on $6 an hour. An American auto worker cannot survive on $27 per day like his Mexican counterpart. Years ago, workers worldwide were protected by equivalent wage tariffs but that's no longer the case.
I wouldn't say there are many issue in the country and the world right now. I would say there are crises/emergencies in every area of life. And human beings will not do a goddamn thing to change until they have to which, given the magnitude of the problems, will be far too late. We didn't the ability to destroy the planet a century ago, nor did we have >7 billion people.
Let me put it this way: in the 18th and 19th century, we wiped out whales. Today we've fished out entire oceans. Get it? Now apply that same level of destruction in every meaningful subject and in every corner of the globe. Food, agriculture, water, land, air, energy, entire ecosystems, lost biodiversity, global warming, pollution, drug resistant organisms, the economy, wealth distribution, the return of slavery, human rights, the rise of corporations, the corruption of democracy, warfare, the banking system, population, the huge number of baby boomers...nothing we do is sustainable and there isn't a single warning light that isn't flashing red.
Your mention of the 24 hour news cycle is part of the problem: a society as large and as complex as ours cannot be that myopic! Our problems are so large and so numerous and have been ignored for so long that we **must** plan further, much further, ahead than the next business quarter. It's insane to do otherwise.
the economy CAN return if:
1) manufacturing, labor unions, and the middle class returns and much of Wall Street is thrown in jail
2) health care is nationalized
3) education, infrastructure and green energy are taken seriously
4) useless idiotic pointless expensive wars that help no one but defense contractors are ended
None of this is impossible. 1st step to starting the above, is ending right-wing media monopolization which keeps much of the public heavily propagandized and confused. The rich want you to think things are hopeless so you won't even try. Any slave-master holding the whip would do the same...
I don't disagree, but how can we ask anyone to pony up more in the way of taxes when so much of what we do send to DC is flushed right down the s**tter?
ahhhh yes, good ole liberal logic, lies and half truths.....
"The government spent to get out of that recession -Depression, and created a whole new generation of prosperity"
our economy was also centered around our military, so by your logic, all the money we're spending on wars is a good thing.....
"What isn't being considered is allot of these retirees have so much debt that they will not be able to retire till their 70, so they will in fact be paying into the system for the next 20 years"
ah yes, because this is such a provable fact and such a great idea to run our long turn econmoic outlook on....
"Raising taxes, and creating a public Medicare system is another option that can easily take away from the debt levels"
HAHAHAHA, medicare/medicaid and other government health programs are over 20% of the budget and cover around 20% of the popultaion and you think putting EVERYONE on it will save money?!?!?!?
" the only system that is still ran by private entities (who care more for profit, than the middle classes health)."
that's why they have some of the lowest profit margins for buisness's....
you sure have your far left wing talking points down tho....
Some economists say they did, some say they didn't, but you're right it seems both sides have finally come to the realization that we can't go on spending like we have been.
Maybe if we had a balanced budget amendment which forced politicians to at least live within our means we could battle about what to cut and what not to cut. But as long as politicians pay no heed whatsoever to what we're taking in versus what we're shelling out, I can't support sending them another dime.
Side note, good to see you again. You're the most pragmatic liberal I know.
The key to the US economy is innovation. It hasnt been natural resources for a long time. The US needs a good supply of energy and right now that is oil. But it isnt the driving force of the economy.
nygenxerJun 30, 2011Buried
That we're in Depression_2.0 will be obvious to even the dimmest bulb by the end of 2011 is something I've been saying since last year. This has been a lost decade. Neither party is going to do a damn thing to help the poor/working/middle class - or at the earliest, after the 2012 election meaning we're on our own until 2014. I don't see the system lasting that long. Everyone I know is broke, in debt and underpaid. All of the wealth earned by the middle class from 1946 to 1970 is in the pockets of the wealthy (and then some) thanks to regressive taxation, regressive policies, outsourcing, stagnant wages, and the out-of-the-closet marriage of corporations government.
The middle class is totally tapped financially. The poor never had any money - and their ranks grow daily. And the rich just want more for themselves and they'll continue to get it until either a) one economic link/natural disaster/incident in the web breaks, taking everything else with it or b) the French Revolution goes global.
Every single pillar that holds up our world is rotten and ready to crumble. I defy anyone to name one that isn't.
skeptictankJun 30, 2011Buried
I'm not an economist but I don't see how any economy can survive without producing something other than "Financial Instruments" i.e. creative accounting. We borrow and import but do not produce or sell anything. If I remember, there's physics law that says you can't get something from nothing. But that's another matter.
angrycat70Jun 30, 2011Buried
I think that they are right.
The United States economy works best when there is energy, specifically oil, at stable low prices. Since oil prices became unhinged in the late 90s, there has been no stable, long term growth.
As energy prices go up, they make everything cost more.
The ONLY way out is to create a balanced energy policy that allows us to transition from todays energy (oil) to tomorrows energy (geothermal, nuclear[thorium], natural gas).
ren1999Jun 30, 2011Buried
It really doesn't matter what people believe. It only matters what is happening statistically. Statistically, it is time for America's Rich to skip the country with their loot.
ladybug288Jun 30, 2011Buried
If the economy is all about confidence... then this is a worrying trend...
nygenxerJul 1, 2011Buried
EXACTLY! You made my day. Here, read this (and pay particular attention to #8 - we're on the same wavelength).
Suggestions:
1) We need to end the wars of Afghanistan and Iraq, as well as the bogus war on nouns (drugs and terror), and cut the defense budget.
2) Eliminate corporate personhood and term limits for corporate charters of 25 years.
3) Reinstate Glass-Stegall and the rest of the New Deal banking regulations. A full auditing of the federal reserve (a private corporation no more “federal” than Federal Express) is long overdue.
4) Separation of corporations and state: in the Bill of Rights we have a separation of church and state. We need an additional amendment to permanently, absolutely and irrevocably separate corporate and state powers.
5) Free airtime for politicians on broadcast networks in the 90 days leading up to Election Day. Politicians should be required to wear the names/corporate logos of their sponsors on their clothes while performing official business, same as NASCAR drivers.
6) The first $25,000 of income should be free from federal taxes. This should be the national minimum wage ($12 an hour) and its annual automatic raises tied to either the inflationary rate or to what raise Congress gives itself - whichever is larger. The minimum wage needs to be enough to actually live on. Support family values? Then support a wage large enough for a single earner to support a family with. Support smaller government? Then enough with Congress voting pay raises for themselves. The economy needs people to earn enough money so they can pay off old debts and make new ones.
7) Every foreclosed property that the banks can't prove they own could be sold to the homeless poor and working class for pennies on the dollar with 30 year mortgages and low minimum monthly payments of say, $400 to $500 a month. Since the US gov't already gave $9T in loans at 0% interest to the criminals who crashed the economy, helping their victims should not be a problem. It does not make sense to bail out the banks but not help their victims.
8) Restore taxes that protect workers from exploitation. If a pair of shoes made in America has $1 of labor costs and the same shoes made in Taiwan has 10 cents of labor costs, then a 90 cent tax should be added to each pair of shoes imported into the US. Similarly, if a US-based engineer costs $90K and an Indian engineer costs $10K, then an $80K tax should be paid by the company for each Indian hired over an American. A similar tax can be added to goods manufactured in countries without environmental protections. Such a system protects workers in both countries from an exploitative “race-to-the-bottom”.
9) Raise the social security tax to all personal income over $107,000 so that everyone pays the same percentage. Do that and the program will have enough surplus to be expanded and to raise benefits! Also, social security insurance payments should NOT be considered taxable income, especially in a nation without universal health care.
10) Speaking of which, universal health care: anyone that says it’ll cost more money is either lying, ignorant or stupid: every other country on Earth has it but NONE pay nearly what we do; QED. Despite spending more money than everyone else, the US is #37 in health care right behind France, Italy, San Marino, Andorra, Malta, Singapore, Spain, Oman, Austria, Japan, Norway, Portugal, Monaco, Greece, Iceland, Luxembourg, Netherlands, United Kingdom, Ireland, Switzerland, Belgium, Colombia, Sweden, Cyprus, Germany, Saudi Arabia, United Arab Emirates, Israel, Morocco, Canada, Finland, Australia, Chile, Denmark, Dominica and Costa Rica.
11) Renewable energy independence is a national security issue and should be treated with the same urgency as the space race of the 1960s (and at the moment, this needs to include revisiting nuclear power). A vigorous new effort towards energy independence can be combined with a new WPA that lowers unemployment while renewing our national infrastructure and a new Homestead Act that creates family-owned energy farms will renew rural investment and strengthen the national grid through decentralization of power generation and transmission. We can also rewire the nation’s communications network to a 22nd century standard while hardening the network’s vulnerabilities to attack. Can you imagine life without electricity or the internet? Neither can I – these systems need fortification.
12) Speaking of the internet, unfettered high speed internet is far too important to leave to private interests. Universal internet service should be a national public utility.
13) Universal higher education, student loan forgiveness and a total overhaul of the system: for less money than what we spent in Iraq, everyone's student loans could have been paid off in full. The best and the brightest in the country are hamstrung by this debt and by usury practices that would put make Tony Soprano blush – all backed by the muscle of the US gov’t. FreeDUMB doesn’t work in a democracy, yet we are becoming dumber with each generation. Critical thinking is what’s required for a functioning democracy, not “teaching to the test.”
14) Fresh water is running out worldwide. You can't drink oil nor can you raise plants and livestock with it. Water wars have occurred in the past and will occur again. The 19th century laws regarding water rights need to be updated. Water is a universal human right that must be beyond corporate or private control.
15) Ready or not, global warming is happening. We have to accept this reality and prepare for it as best we can.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zORv8wwiadQ
Schweppesale2Jun 30, 2011Buried
Unemployment jumped to 8% only a few months after Obama was sworn in.
He could not have passed any legislation at the point which would have had that sort of impact on the economy.
cryinlionJun 30, 2011Buried
Read this, and tell me if the situation sounds familiar.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_asset_price_bubble
The Japanese tried to solve their financial crisis by borrowing against debt and pumping money into the economy. They now have a national debt at 228% of GDP.
kcast985Jun 30, 2011Buried
As long as we have big goverment throwing money at the problem and having only temporary recovery and no movement in the private sector it might not get any better
crunchdiggJun 30, 2011Buried
your account was created yesterday. What was your previously-banned user name?
nygenxerJul 1, 2011Buried
I'm not a man given to panic. I've watched the situation deteriorate over the course of decades and the rate of deterioration is accelerating. When it became obvious that Obama was not the change we hoped for (and we desperately need major systemic changes along the lines of FDR) it's time to hit the fire alarm.
I knew somebody was going to say "innovation" as that has historically been our golden goose, but take a closer look at innovation: companies started cutting R&D budgets decades ago. Take the pharmaceutical industry or computer industry as examples. And to paraphrase the point that eraptor made, the innovation of the ipad doesn't mean squat when it's manufactured in another country at nigh slave wages and conditions, and intellectual properties are pirated all too easily.
You also mentioned productivity. Sorry, but productivity has increased in the United States (we are the most productive in the world) but this has not meant higher wages. This decoupling between increased productivity and wages began in the early 1970s. This is the core of the problem.
You also mentioned competition. Again, a race to the bottom helps no one. An American electrical engineer with a BS and $30K in student loans cannot compete with an EE from Bangalore with an MS who lives comfortably on $6 an hour. An American auto worker cannot survive on $27 per day like his Mexican counterpart. Years ago, workers worldwide were protected by equivalent wage tariffs but that's no longer the case.
I wouldn't say there are many issue in the country and the world right now. I would say there are crises/emergencies in every area of life. And human beings will not do a goddamn thing to change until they have to which, given the magnitude of the problems, will be far too late. We didn't the ability to destroy the planet a century ago, nor did we have >7 billion people.
Let me put it this way: in the 18th and 19th century, we wiped out whales. Today we've fished out entire oceans. Get it? Now apply that same level of destruction in every meaningful subject and in every corner of the globe. Food, agriculture, water, land, air, energy, entire ecosystems, lost biodiversity, global warming, pollution, drug resistant organisms, the economy, wealth distribution, the return of slavery, human rights, the rise of corporations, the corruption of democracy, warfare, the banking system, population, the huge number of baby boomers...nothing we do is sustainable and there isn't a single warning light that isn't flashing red.
Your mention of the 24 hour news cycle is part of the problem: a society as large and as complex as ours cannot be that myopic! Our problems are so large and so numerous and have been ignored for so long that we **must** plan further, much further, ahead than the next business quarter. It's insane to do otherwise.
chomskyknows2Jun 30, 2011Buried
the economy CAN return if:
1) manufacturing, labor unions, and the middle class returns and much of Wall Street is thrown in jail
2) health care is nationalized
3) education, infrastructure and green energy are taken seriously
4) useless idiotic pointless expensive wars that help no one but defense contractors are ended
None of this is impossible. 1st step to starting the above, is ending right-wing media monopolization which keeps much of the public heavily propagandized and confused. The rich want you to think things are hopeless so you won't even try. Any slave-master holding the whip would do the same...
skeptictankJun 30, 2011Buried
OK I'll take trade deficit out of my dictionary and add the word condescend. Thanks for the tip!
timedalkatJun 30, 2011Buried
Globalism. Deal with it, or fight it.
atomheartmotherJun 30, 2011Buried
I don't disagree, but how can we ask anyone to pony up more in the way of taxes when so much of what we do send to DC is flushed right down the s**tter?
dabusJun 30, 2011Buried
ahhhh yes, good ole liberal logic, lies and half truths.....
"The government spent to get out of that recession -Depression, and created a whole new generation of prosperity"
our economy was also centered around our military, so by your logic, all the money we're spending on wars is a good thing.....
"What isn't being considered is allot of these retirees have so much debt that they will not be able to retire till their 70, so they will in fact be paying into the system for the next 20 years"
ah yes, because this is such a provable fact and such a great idea to run our long turn econmoic outlook on....
"Raising taxes, and creating a public Medicare system is another option that can easily take away from the debt levels"
HAHAHAHA, medicare/medicaid and other government health programs are over 20% of the budget and cover around 20% of the popultaion and you think putting EVERYONE on it will save money?!?!?!?
" the only system that is still ran by private entities (who care more for profit, than the middle classes health)."
that's why they have some of the lowest profit margins for buisness's....
you sure have your far left wing talking points down tho....
atomheartmotherJun 30, 2011Buried
Some economists say they did, some say they didn't, but you're right it seems both sides have finally come to the realization that we can't go on spending like we have been.
Maybe if we had a balanced budget amendment which forced politicians to at least live within our means we could battle about what to cut and what not to cut. But as long as politicians pay no heed whatsoever to what we're taking in versus what we're shelling out, I can't support sending them another dime.
Side note, good to see you again. You're the most pragmatic liberal I know.
ieatskunkJun 30, 2011Buried
The key to the US economy is innovation. It hasnt been natural resources for a long time. The US needs a good supply of energy and right now that is oil. But it isnt the driving force of the economy.
redstringJun 30, 2011Buried
Only 4 out of 10... what are the other 6 smoking?